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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Hey guys, I can’t figure this out and have tried a few things, maybe someone could point out something I have missed.

When its cold and the engine is cold the car will only fire up and idle, very slowly, only if i keep the key on. when it does idle it is very slow, almost stalls, after a while it starts to rise in increments, its as if the ecu is changing the injector duration and eventually it gets to normal idle speed.

When the car is warm or the weather is warm these symptoms are not there. The car starts on the fifth crank and idles fine.

I have fitted a new rotor arm and dizzy cap, the ht leads are oem and about 1 year old, along with the spark plugs, i bought a new CTS and compared the readings from mine and mine is ok, I have compared my idle valve to another idle valve and you can see it open when you crank the engine, mine behaves in the same manor and to rule mine out I have left the other one in place, the engine does the exact same thing even if the idle valve is not connected by the way. The throttle bodies have recently been balanced and the emissions were checked and set via the idle mixture screw. I am running with no lambda correction, so its not the lambda sensor. The throttle position switch is set correctly. The idle speed doesn't change when pressing on rubber tubing from the plenum chamber to the AFM, so its not an air leek, or at least not there and have checked all the clamps are tight. I have cleaned out the oil vapour capture in the oil filler neck. I have compared the air temp sensor with my spare AFM.
I have tried another coil, I have reset the ecu and am about to fit a blink code tester.

ECU?
Vapour recirculation?

I'm stumped, any ideas?
thanks Alan
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

someone has suggested it might be fuel pressure related, clean fuel pump power connections, clean pipe from vacuum pipe from fuel pressure regulator, clean pipes from idle control valve to throttle bodies, check fuel pressure, fuel filter.

What do you think, if fuel pressure is low there will not be enough fuel for the normal injector duration so the ecu slowly increases the duration????
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Oggie · Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject:

I think you worry too much, my car suffers from the same issue at this time of year, my guess is the naff wiring, it seems after a few years the cables do not fair well.
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Hey Iain,
yer i worry, worry it wont start Laughing

I wonder how many other people get the same thing and just put up with it?
Aren't injection cars are supposed to start on the button every time, if not there is a problem.
Is it wiring though, could wiring cause this or could it be a faulty component?

Can someone explain the fuel pressure regulation system, i was under the impression that it holds the pressure above atmospheric by a set amount.

Could it be that when its cold and there is more air pressure, it struggles to keep the pressure constant, or the constant isn't enough so the ecu ups the duration?
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Oggie · Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject:

I think at this time of year with the cars exposed to the elements , things start to tighten up and reduce in size causing higher compression when trying to start up. Al does your car start up better when warmed up?. Another (unrelated) thing I recently noticed was if you leave the vents open on your car its less likely to get condensation on the windows when the cars been sat for a while.
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PHAT 33

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Hi Iain, yup, car starts fine when warm

Oggie · Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject:

Sorry Al , i have no mic yet to accept skype calls, my laptop is abit.....dated oh and slow. Laughing

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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

lol
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

i have changed the title of this post as i wasn't sure if everyone knew that i was only having problems when the weather is freezing cold.

As it has been warmer, but still cold, but not freezing cold, my car starts as it should now, so i cant do any testing. I need it to be freezing cold.
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lee16v · Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject:

Try moving Al, South of France off the top of my head!

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

I have changed the title back, lol
The car does it when cold, not just freezing cold.
Any ideas? I have to keep the key on.
The starter motor turns over fast enough but the engine ticks over so slowly and then slowly goes up to proper idle speed.
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

It has been suggested that it could be wear on the butterfly stops levers and that adjusting the screws to compensate could help.
The car has done 60k odd miles, I service and look after her very well, I have replaced the following;
Oil and filter
All HT leads with OEM ones
Rotor arm
Dizzy
Fuel filter
Plugs Platinum
SS exhaust from cat back and new proper gaskets for cat car.
K&N air filter

Cleaned oil air recirculation thingy

Different ECU
Different AFM
Different Coil
Checked CTS
Checked rotor timing
Checked cam timing
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Admin · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject:

Hi

Suspect the main wear would be on the spindles / bearings for the butterfly valves, and this would like cause an air leak and a high idle (with a weak mixture).

All the best

Keith
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Hey Keith,
The thing is that the idle is so low it stalls unless you keep the key on and then it ticks over so slowly you think it will stall, then increases in increments slowly for up to 2 mins to 900rpm when the weather is really cold. There is no fast tick over which I would expect and prefer. I which there was a way to get it to tick over at just over 1.5k so that the alternator would kick in and then quickly drop to 900 rmp, like in new cars.
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Oggie · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject:

Perhaps an old fashioned choke cable linked to the accelerator pedal/cable?.
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Admin · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject:

Hi

One thing you haven't changed it seems is the idle control valve.

All the best

Keith
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

oops, forgot to mention that, checked and changed the idle control valve, both worked ok. Laughing

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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

keith, i have a sound file of it, can you host it as i dont think photobucket will?
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

I have sorted the problem!!!!!

If anyone else gets this problem, try the following

I used a 2.5mm ellenkey and 8mm spanner and adjusted the throttle stops from closed to 1 turn and adjusted the TPS afterwards obviously.
starts and goes to 900 rpm idle when cold in under 3 secs, damn fast lol.

Wahoooo.
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RFlower · Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:15 am Post subject:

http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6215&highlight=

I always suspect connections first!
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Rflower

Ive replaced everything bar the engine block Smile

, I can confirm i have not had the problem since.
I have noticed a smell of fuel since but cant find a leak and worse fuel economy, i also set the mixture screw back to default 2.55v as i adjusted co down to 0.3 on idle instead of 0.5.
I have my fire extinguisher ready!!
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lee16v · Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:20 am Post subject:

Al, Your leak is probably the small pipe between the fuel pressure damper thingy and the fuel rail. Had this one go a couple of times and you probably don't notice the leak so easily because of (a) it's position and (b) evaporation when the engine is hot.

BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Thanks Lee,
I will have a look tomorrow, i still have my T/Y piece plumbed in from when i did my fuel pressure test, i checked there first thing Laughing

I can really smell the fuel when i start up from cold and when i gave it the beans last week, haven't done since just incase.
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

Well i did have a look and saw nothing. I'm not smelling fuel anymore but still getting bad mpg so i will adjust my fuel mixture screw until my lambda probe reads roughly .45 volts, until i borrow the proper tool to stick in the pre emission hole whists on a gas analyser.
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BigAl · P4 Joined: 06 May 2003 Posts: 2992 Location: U.K Surrey

I have not had the smell until i adjusted the idle mixture screw, along with the proper alfa tool to test emissions before the cat.
Why would adjusting the idle mixture screw cause the fuel smell?
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