Alfa Pages

[Rich B]

Hi All

The last couple of times I've started my car (a 94 series 3 1.7IE) it has sounded quite rough as though its not running on all cylinders and produces quite a bit of (white coloured) smoke. After a bit of revving or idling for a while, it settles down and sounds and drives normally and the smoke disappears.

I think a bit of smoke on start up is common due to the boxer configuration and oil accumulating in the bottom of the bores but this normally dissipates after a few seconds. My car is used as a fun car only and therefore sometimes goes for up to a few weeks without being used. I would therefore expect a bit of smoke and maybe the odd hiccup but not as much as I've been experiencing lately.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Rich

[John w not logged]

Hi,

Could be the lambda probe. Is it running very rich, Rich (couldn't resist).

Seriously, if the lambda is shot, it can make the car run like a dog and use loads of fuel, as it defaults to rich running mode, at least on the 16valver.

John

[stedee]

i dont want to put you on one - but it does sound like a headgasket problem. check the oil and water for residues especially the water(the oil cap can get gunky anyway so i wouldnt rely on that).i am no expert but white smoke usually means water is in the cylinders i think.if it hasnt run for a while water can collect in the pistons on any engine so give it a good run 1st and then see what happens.
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brum brum

[bobbber]

Rich,

Some more incentive to 'upgrade' the engine then! Good luck.

Bob
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Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

[Rich B]

Thanks Guys - I'll have a look at the oil filler cap as you suggest Stedee, the coolant is a nasty brown colour even after I flushed the system through and changed the coolant about 4 weeks ago.

As you say Bobbber, could be the incentive I need to get my arse in gear and get that other bloody engine installed! (I seem to be getting parts on an almost daily basis and everything is just piling up!!).

[stedee]

if the coolant is a rusty brown colour thats ok but if its a darker brown with little lumpy bits i would say it is definately headgasket gone
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brum brum

[Rich B]

Right, fired it up last night and no problems whatsoever! No smoke, no stuttering, just normal running. How do you explain that. Maybe the old girl was sulking for not being used for a while?

Checked the coolant - rusty brown colour but no lumps. oil filler cap is clean with no mayonnaise.

Fuel economy is ok, so I don't think Rich's car is running rich - thanks for the pun John, thought I'd use it again!!

[stedee]

happy 4 u
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brum brum

[markgp4]

alfa ? sulk?
No way !


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make it go faster

[tinworm]

It might be worthwhile checking the brake fluid level as a leaking booster diaphragm can allow fluid to be sucked out of the master cylinder. It has a very distinctive smell when it's been burnt though, a horrible one as opposed to coolant. Or not if it has nasty brown water in the radiator Something to consider anyway.
Cheers,... Col.
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1977 Alfasud ti 1.7
1985 Alfa 33 4x4 1.7
1968 1750 GTV
1986 Alfa Sprint 1.5 QV

[Rich B]

Thanks - brake fluid level looks ok - no nasty smells either. Master cylinder was replaced about 18months ago.

I did notice that the oil looks a similar colour to the coolant though - all is running ok though.

[stedee]

that doesnt sound good!!!!!!!
your oil should turn black not brown
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brum brum

[Rich B]

Yes it does sound a bit dodgy doesn't it Stedee? However, I'd be equally worried if my oil was black - sounds like you need an oil change!!!
The oil I use (Selenia 20k) is a kind of light translucent browny colour. Having said that my oil is a kind of rusty colour - time for an oil change.

[Rich B]

Help! My car is beginning to run really rough now - when you start it the starter motor turns over fine, then stops, then turns slowly and the car starts. It sounds like its only firing on 2 or 3 cylinders as its really lumpy.

When I pull away, the car is very jerky, as though its trying to clear something and it will run ok for a second or so before running rough again. All this is accompanied by lots of greyish smoke. After maybe 2 miles, all seems to clear and the car runs fine with no smoke or hesitation.

The coolant light often illuminates on the alfa control (mine works fine unusually!) and I often need a slight top up to make the light extinguish. Could this be a head gasket problem?

Any more ideas would be appreciated - sod's law isn't it that my 145 is also playing up and refuses to start. Looks like I'll be walking to Brooklands, better set off now!!

[bobbber]

If the coolant level is going down at quite a pace - you need to ask yourself where it's going. Either you're losing it somewhere due to a simple fault (i.e. pipes/joints leaking) - or it's head gasket failure.

A DECENT garage may have a neat tool which screws onto the top of the coolant expansion tank and detects exhaust gases. Please note these decent garages are few and far between though.

White smoke is water, and blue smoke is oil. Therefore (white smoke from exhaust), you are experiencing some degree of burning water. If the car is stood up for a while though, this can be water in the exhaust simply burning off.

Try to find one of those decent garages - and make certain.

Hope that helps.

Bob
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Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

[paulhide]

If it were 8 valve I would say leave the car standing overnight or as long as poss, take out all plugs and turn engine over and see if water comes out of any of the cylinders, but 16vers are a pig to get the plugs out of so find a garage to do a hydrocarbon test in the coolant tank.
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Owner's Club 33 Registrar. Now from P4 & S2 1.7 QV
http://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5188

[bobbber]

Yeah..... hydrocarbon test... thanks Paul. Couldn't think of the proper name

Bob
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Fiat Bravo 165 Sport

[Rich B]

ok, I think its a head gasket problem - here's picture of the smoke on start up:



I removed the oil filler cap while the engine was running and some water sprayed up at me from the oil filler neck. Both the filler neck and oil filler cap had a creamy substance on them.

Is this an engine out job??

Sod's law my 145 is playing up too - immobiliser problem. Lots of walking for me then!

[stedee]

yep it sure is - the joys of owning a boxer engine - a normal engine you could take the heads off without taking the engine out.
a word of advice if you undertake the head gasket replacement - make sure your heads arent warped or to be safe have them skimmed - its not as expensive as you may think - i paid 20 per head and your car will be a bit faster to boot.
clean the engine well b4 you put it back together and use coolant flush and engine flush when you put it back together - it would be easy for that nasty gunky scum to block an oil vein especially in the heads where they are very small
and good luck
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brum brum

[16v campervan]

Hi Rich, just a few thoughts to what does sound suspisiously like a head gasket.
If water is leaking through the water jacket into combustion chamber when engine is not running it should pass through the rings into the sump and then appear as that mayonaise like sludge. If alot of water was being retained in the bore the water would hydraulic and sieze up (unlikely you normally need to drive into a flood for this) It is most likely to be leaking under the running pressure of the waterpump. Whilst the engine is warmed up and all condensation from the exhaust has evapourated the coolant leakage would appear as steam at the exhaust, try putting a glass on the end to condensate the gasses and look fo excess water. A cylinder compression test is a quick and cheap way to show up a head gaskett failure on most cars but may be tricky on the 16v due to lack of space. This would enable you to identify which bank is faulty and reduce amount of work if you were on a budget. best of luck, Tony.